Curse

oostdyk · Jun 18, 2005, 03:00 PM // 15:00

I must say I find this thread very interesting.

Speaking of grind, anybody ever play Lineage 2? That game is grinding... compared to that... guild wars isn't even a walk in the leveling park... it's a fun fair.

Especially for healers or buffers in Lineage 2, it was hard work from 20-40, since they could hardly solo without taking forever, and would get less money from faster lvling in dungeons... it took me about 2 months of excessive playing to reach lvl 40 weith a prophet, albeit I was not the best lvl'r...

I did however spend 18 hours a day for 2 weeks in one and the same dungeon, killing only golemns in Clan groups. this consisted of most of my 30-40 lvling...

IMHO, Guild Wars is something of a breather from all the item based combat. I remember in l2 that a better weapon would almost certainly (99%) mean you would win... and added to that is the fact that a lower lvl will not even do damage to higher lvls, because their attacks fail and do 1 dmg. That system just really, really sucked, and made L2 impossible to get into a few months after release, because you'd get ganked and farmed by higher lvls, and the game adaptations for higher lvls would negatively influence the lower lvls.

Besides, I've never had trouble getting money. I usually have an overabundance of it... I ran into a person of the same lvl and classes, who was still gathering 49 armor druid armor, with some major runes. I was on my third set of armor, and ready to buy full 55 druid armor and buy a major vigor rune from the rune trader (having already bought superior expertise, major marksmanship and minor wilderniss survival) So... what are some people not doing that I am?

Personally, I think my Ranger/Necromancer is a very nifty character to play.

Rieselle · Jun 18, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madan

I can tell you right now that the game is NOT WoW. If you're thinking that you're getting Everquest for free, you're wrong.

I really hate WoW, and I left EQ2 because I bought it early and it was really, really buggy. Plus, now that I've played some PvP I can never go back.

I'm going to write as if you're comparing GW to WoW. If you're taking it from a general point of view, and comparing GW to single player RPGs, then yes, online RPGs suck compared to single player RPGs. But to some people playing with other humans offsets that with goodness of its own. Plus online RPGs change over time which is interesting in its own way.

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Originally Posted by Madan

The server instancing that you experience on quests or missions means you rarely meet people outside your own team of friends. Most of the time, the gameplay is solo.

Agreed. It takes a fair bit of effort to find people to play with in GW. But it is possible to have fun times with good people - it just takes more effort. (I'm lazy so that sucks.)

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Originally Posted by Madan

And that solo gameplay accentuates the game's weaknesses. The different classes are NOT balanced.

True. This has a greater impact on those who choose their characters based on some RP or aesthetic decisions. You could always just roll up some W/Mo or Mo/xxx and be on easy street. I'm certainly having some troubles with my E/W.... but I love girls in dresses with swords .... :P

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Originally Posted by Madan

Of course the statements about GW not being non-time intensive are completely inaccurate. The game is VERY time-intensive. Sure, you can teleport from city to city using your map. Great. But to play PvP, you need to obtain skills, equipment and other resources through campaigning and campaigning, while quick at first, can be very s..l..o..w...depending on your profession once you reach post-searing play. You'll often find that you can level up to level five on your first hour. The next five levels take you ten hours afterwards and each level after that takes you about five hours all by itself.

False! I can't believe you're comparing this game to WoW. The rate of level increase in WoW is horrendously slow compared to GW. And there are far more levels in WoW. And even worse, there's much less Skills/Equipment/Stuff in WoW - and it's stretched over a much longer time. Take my mage in WoW. Basically after level 35 or so I've seen every spell I'll ever have. All the subsequent spells are just the same thing, with larger damage numbers. Heck, I don't mind so much if they reuse graphics - but at least give us more tactical options, more choices, right??!

Plus you get 2-3 spells, what, every 2 levels? (I cant remember...was it 5?). And the time per level AT LEAST 5 hours or so, for the levels over 30+. So that's 10 hours or so, to get 2-3 spells that are exactly the same as the ones you have before. Plus you're paying a montly fee for it.

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Originally Posted by Madan

PvP is very cutthroat and you won't really be competitive in upper-eschelon play, without the goodies you find campaigning. So you can forget dreaming about jumping in right after buying the game and competing at any decent level in PvP. Finding partners, especially out of your guild, to campaign with is very rough going and thankfully there are henchmen you can hire.

What is this mythical "competing at a decent level" that some people are so obsessed with??? Apparently FPS's have it. But, when I jump onto CS... I don't know the maps, I don't know which weapons are good for what purposes, and I can't aim. There's no way I could play against hard-core clans and expect not to die over and over again. And it's possible that I will NEVER be able to compete against those guys.

It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be playing on the same field - blaming it on goodies that other people have and you don't, is not thinking it through.

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Originally Posted by Madan

The henchmen. The problem is that they're a huge resource burden, often making drops from mobs far less likely. Do you want gold, items and goodies or do you want levels. No game should force you to play that way.

That's an extremely arguable opinion. You could instead think of it as this - those who do what it takes to be able to play with the minimum amount of henchmen, will reap the most rewards. Whether that's picking the right classes, the right skills, playing skillfully, or whatever. You might want to claim that you should be able to use "your skill" to overcome the problem, regardless of your character build. But that's a fallacy - an important part of "skill" in all RPGs is correctly building your character for maximum effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Madan

Now square such a map and you can realize that there is a large variety of areas and creatures to slay. The problem is that you'll most likely be slaying the same three types over and over once you enter one area.

Again, I can't believe you're comparing GW to WoW. At least, once you've ran through an area, you don't need to do so again unless you're looking for something in it. WoW and EQ2 forces you to repeatedly traverse areas just to pass through them, and they often structure quests that requires lots of running back and forth - fighting the same monsters all the way. (Darkshire, anyone??)

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Originally Posted by Madan

The last two problems I notice is that the game has a story but unlike most reviewers, I think it's pretty weak. The game unfolds around you very slowly, rarely forcing you to make tough calls or split-decisions. Moreover, the gameplay focuses on either: "Fetch me this ingredient." OR "Kill XXX entity for me to gain experience."

I agree that the story is kinda sucky. But at least there is a story. Now that the game mechanic has been established, maybe later expansions will have better stories. Here's to hoping.

I don't agree with your point about the Quests. Granted, there's no decisions that affect the outcome of things (we need those!). But both WoW and EQ both are excessively full of similar boring quests. And at the very least, GW has very few "Go to area X and kill 20 wolves and come back to me" quests. Most of the quests involve traveling through an area, accomplishing a goal, and then warping back. Much like a single player RPG subquest.

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Originally Posted by Madan

The problem becomes even more underscored when you realize that the game mechanics are VERY shallow. Six professions, NO kinds of stats, save your ability scores(about half a dozen) and your AC. Everything else is obscured from you, so if you're a stat-junky or a tactician that relishes sifting through volumes of statistical possibilities for variation in your character, like in D&D based games or Diablo...you can forget it. The game feels far more like an FPS than an RPG and the only real ways to differentiate yourself from your opponents is the color of your spells/effects and your outfit.

Again - I can't believe you're comparing GW to the games you are mentioning to prove your point. The amount of Attributes in GW is equal to the amount of attributes in D&D... plus EVERY attribute is important to your character. In D&D you just want to max out your 2-3 important attributes, everything else is junk. (Charisma for a fighter, anyone?). If you're complaining about the lack of RP, well Diablo has very little RP as well. NWN might be better.

Not to mention GW's attributes are adjustable - perfect for the stat-junky. In D&D, your attributes are mostly fixed once you make your character.

As for Diablo - even Diablo 2 with expansion packs didn't have more than 8 or so classes, if I recall. (didnt play D2 much...). Secondary class makes a BIG different in GW, and the number of significantly different class combinations you can make is quite large.

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Originally Posted by Madan

Which brings me to my last point. Outfitting your character is an excruciating process. Sure you can salvage materials from goodies and craft your own items with help. Usually, the item you found at level 3 is just as good as the items you find at level 13. No, I'm NOT kidding. The items are very ho-hum. No distinction between them in appearance or abilities.

That's so wrong - a Skill Req 9 weapon is 2-3 times better than a beginner weapon. And since the monsters don't scale up in levels as much as they do in other games, the weapons are ACTUALLY better, not just "the same as the old weapon except it works on the current set of monsters."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madan

I would have to say that GW is a very unforgiving game. That word best sums it up: "unforgiving". GW has an attitude that you: "should just suck it up and play". But I'm playing a game, and GW shouldn't feel like work, which sometimes it does. Using the same 8 spells over and over(you can only outfit your character with 8 spells/abilities at any one time), on brainless mobs so that I can scrounge 60 gp to buy an extra +1 on my generally ineffectual weapon, just to start all over again, is NOT my idea of "fun".

That's probably worst thing you've said in the entire post. Sure, you use the same 8 skills in a particular area, but you have a huge variety of changes available between areas. I've gone from a melee E/W, to a E/Mo, to a long range E/W, from defensive earth to AOE fire to focused Air.

Take WoW. I blew tens of gold (and gold is not easy to get in that game!) repeccing my mage - but in the end, it was always some variation of: Fire/Frost bolt x 2, Frost nova, run away, repeat. If I'm in a group, then I'll get the chance to use Arcane Missiles and Blizzard every now and then. That's it. For the whole game.

Gah.... I can't believe I wrote such a long post rebutting your pissant opinion... I should be spending this time playing the damn game... I'm so bored. I'll shut up now.

Aranarth · Jun 18, 2005, 03:11 PM // 15:11

It's not what the game is about or how much fun it is right now that bothers me. It's that all of the patches to date have gone in one direction. In the name of fixing the grind that GW isn't about, it has increased it each time so far.

It is as simple as making buying a rune from the shop unlock it, really. But will they do that? We will see. Either way, so far each patch has increased farming, no matter how small the grind may be compared to other games.

To the other poster: It doesn't make one bit of difference what L2 is compared to Guild Wars. They have nothing to do with eachother, and that has nothing to do with my point.

Edit: The post previous to this on was not there when I began making this response. This is meant as a response to the two posts directly after my last post.

I would like to just respond to one of the points in this latest post, though.

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What is this mythical "competing at a decent level" that some people are so obsessed with??? Apparently FPS's have it. But, when I jump onto CS... I don't know the maps, I don't know which weapons are good for what purposes, and I can't aim. There's no way I could play against hard-core clans and expect not to die over and over again. And it's possible that I will NEVER be able to compete against those guys.

You have him on a lot of your points, but this one is unfair. Knowing which weapon you like best and the layout of each map is something that is purely learned and has nothing to do with game mechanics. Item drops and skill capturing are completely different.

JoDiamonds · Jun 18, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

First, bravo for a well thought out and well written post. I'm mostly addressing this first post in of itself, though I've at least skimmed what was written up to this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madan

**This is a mirror post of the review I gave on Designtechnica. If you all have any suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong...let me know.

**

1. Is it just Designtechnica.com? I'd be interested in seeing a link directly to that thread.

2. I'm not actually sure what you are asking for help with here, but ok. =)

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... after playing the game for about a month, I can tell you right now that the game is NOT WoW. If you're thinking that you're getting Everquest for free, you're wrong.

Sure. I agree completely. This is an excellent comment.

I didn't want Everquest. I played that for a few months, didn't like it. Boy, I'm glad GuildWars isn't Everyquest. =)

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The server instancing that you experience on quests or missions means you rarely meet people outside your own team of friends. There's definitely a social component missing as a result.

Also true. This is a fine and legitimate complaint. I personally don't find it serious, but compared to most other Massive Online games it's definitely true. It's not that there isn't ANY social component, but it is lessened.

You seem to be more upset by it than some, but as a guide to people considering what game to play, GuildWars definitely rates lower in social interaction than many other Massive Online games (though I think not much lower).

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My first build was a MesmerElementalist and it took me 25 hours just to solo-level to 10th level post-searing. My FighterMonk took approximately half that time.

This could be rephrased as, "The first time I played the game, it took a lot longer than the second time I played through the game."

The first time you play will almost inherently take you MUCH longer, because you are learning the whole game system. So I don't think this is a completely fair comparison.

That said, the game is new and probably still have balance issues. Bring them up to ANet and here and such. =)

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Of course the statements about GW not being non-time intensive are completely inaccurate. The game is VERY time-intensive. Sure, you can teleport from city to city using your map. Great. But to play PvP, you need to obtain skills, equipment and other resources through campaigning ...

This is in of itself a still hotly debated issue, and I won't try to debate it here. =)

I'm not sure anyone has said GuildWars isn't "time-intensive" per se, but your point is taken.

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The henchmen are even equipped with really solid AI and perform much better than their levels would indicate(they're about 6 levels lower than you at any given time).

This is at least a partial exagerration, and probably based on your first character. I have another character going through the game at a still leisurely pace (I'm not running across the map to skip missions or anything, but I'm ignoring a lot of side quests), and my character is actually keeping quite close pace to the levels of the henchmen.

Even the first time through, it often seemed like the henchmen were usually 2-3 levels behind me. Your Milage May Vary.

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The problem is that they're a huge resource burden, often making drops from mobs far less likely. The drops can be improved with less henchmen on your team but the game becomes far more difficult in some game areas if you do decide to group more sparsely. You are ultimately forced to decide: Do you want gold, items and goodies or do you want levels. No game should force you to play that way.

Sure, but this is identical to true soloing vs. playing with other humans, just like any other Massive Online game. It's still your right to complain about it, but it's NOTHING that's actually specific to GuildWars.

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing that no game should force you to play this way, but as far as I can tell they *all* force it right now.

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The creatures in the game are repetetive and employ poor AI during the first 10 levels. Once you start facing Charr and other opponents, the AI climbs slightly.

I hope you aren't really counting everything before entering the Academy. That really IS a tutorial section, and it's supposed to be incredibly easy. It's almost all practice until you start fighting Charr. Some people say it's all practice until you finish all the missions. (There's even some grain of truth to that, because by all indications the level cap will not be raised in future Chapters.)

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... Now square such a map and you can realize that there is a large variety of areas and creatures to slay. The problem is that you'll most likely be slaying the same three types over and over once you enter one area.

Sure. This is true. Like most things, it's a matter of opinion how important it is. "Three types" is also a wild exagerration, but the point is taken. GuildWars does NOT have the variety of basic art and model types that at least some other games do. (Other games still reuse the same art and model types over and over again, of course, but still have more per square foot or whatever. =)

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The last two problems I notice is that the game has a story but unlike most reviewers, I think it's pretty weak. The game unfolds around you very slowly, rarely forcing you to make tough calls or split-decisions. Moreover, the gameplay focuses on either: "Fetch me this ingredient." OR "Kill XXX entity for me to gain experience.".

This isn't really unlike most Massive Online games. It's a legitimate complaint, but largely unfair to directly compare most single player RPGs with Massive Online games.

There are design problems that aren't easily solved. It's fine to push for them to be solved, but again, GuildWars isn't unique in this aspect.

It's pretty friggin hard to come up with unique quests. Almost all of them are, "Kill [Enemy]", "Move to [Location/Person]", "Protect [Something]", or some combination of those. There are a few more, but seriously, that covers at least half the quests in nearly ANY RPG game.

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The problem becomes even more underscored when you realize that the game mechanics are VERY shallow. Six professions, NO kinds of stats, save your ability scores(about half a dozen) and your AC. Everything else is obscured from you, so if you're a stat-junky or a tactician that relishes sifting through volumes of statistical possibilities for variation in your character, like in D&D based games or Diablo...you can forget it. The game feels far more like an FPS than an RPG and the only real ways to differentiate yourself from your opponents is the color of your spells/effects and your outfit.

Your point is taken, but GuildWars is far more like Diablo than Quake. It's far more like Quake than Diablo is like Quake, but it's still mostly Diablo-esque.

Again, a major point of opinion. I greatly appreciate the elegance and simplicity in GuildWars, while still providing an absurd number of combinations of all kinds. If you are REALLY looking to do statistical craziness, I think there's TONS to do in GuildWars. Some of it doesn't come at the lower levels of PvE, but that's extremely reasonable: Introducing things slowly makes it FAR easier on new players. This is an admirable goal.

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Which brings me to my last point. Outfitting your character is an excruciating process. Sure you can salvage materials from goodies and craft your own items with help. Usually, the item you found at level 3 is just as good as the items you find at level 13. No, I'm NOT kidding. The items are very ho-hum. No distinction between them in appearance or abilities.

1) I disagree completely with the assertion that items found at level 3 are as good as level 13 items. I have not experienced anything like that, and I have four characters who are at least level 13 or higher.

2) Again, it's true that GuildWars have less diverse art than many other Massive games. I don't care much, but don't disagree with you.

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... One could argue that such a process allows a rewarding satisfaction to those that finally achieve their differentiation. Unfortunately, I haven't asked those 2 people yet. But seriously, forcing 98% of the people to look almost identical just to reward 2% of the 24-7 players is NOT a good strategy.

Again, I think you exagerrate this a great deal, while still not being wrong.

It's a slight amount of work to get five dyes of a particular color if you really want them, especially if they are rare black dyes. Otherwise, though, getting dyes in general isn't that hard. You can buy most of them for ~150-300 gold.

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I would have to say that GW is a very unforgiving game.

Like many others, I disagree completely with this. Refund points and the way skills and the skillbar works seems extremely flexible to me, and makes it easy to change your character in retrospect. Other games often lock you in to choice you make every time you level up, and it's just worse. Guildwars is the most forgiving RPG I've ever seen.

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(...) Using the same 8 spells over and over(you can only outfit your character with 8 spells/abilities at any one time), on brainless mobs so that I can scrounge 60 gp to buy an extra +1 on my generally ineffectual weapon, just to start all over again, is NOT my idea of "fun".

Why are you using the same eight spells over and over? Cities are VERY common, and I often change my spells at every city. Using refund points, I've played my ElMo as a pure Lightning attacker to a hybrief Fire/Healer to a pure Healer to a Fire/Ice attacker to a pure Earth/Protection defender. And within each of those combinations there were MANY choices for what skills to actually use, and how to spend my attribute points.

You may actually be alluding to some other kind of problem (not enough new exciting items often enough, which largely relates to a lack of art, as previously mentioned), but this seems to have little to with whether or not GuildWars is "forgiving". Fun and forgiving are very different things. =)

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I'm pretty sure that as time goes on, more and more people will bore with GW because it seems to punish players even more than Everquest or WoW. People are just too wowed at the moment to notice.

Yeah. I just don't understand this comment. It doesn't make sense to me. I hated Everquest because dying was TERRIBLE in it. In GuildWars, dying is at most a temporary annoyance. In Everquest, you lose all your items, have to go back to your body to get your stuff, and often die along the way, making it even harder. How is that less punishing?

I really get the feeling that I'm just not understanding what you mean when you say this. (This isn't trying to pin the fault on you, I'm just confused.)

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It's a shame too because GW has huge potential.

What's the shame? Game hasn't been out for two months, and has significant weekly updates. No matter how much unfilled potential anyone thinks GWs has, there's still a lot of time for it to be filled, ESPECIALLY when there's no monthly fee.

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The problem is that this game is mostly skin-deep. Maybe they can transplant NWN equipment into GW and tweak the economy/community.

Sadly, you can't expect NWN to translate into a Massive Online game. It would just be a different game. I think GuildWars will never match communities that use far less instancing (which I still believe is merely a tradeoff, not inherently good or bad, depends on your opinions), and the economy is making leaps with each update. It's still not perfect (possibly the biggest problem *I* see with GuildWars is still the economy), but they have publicly stated they see the problem and have already made some game changes to address it.

Mygo · Jun 18, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Hmm, my first character was a mesmer too. I picked a Mesmer/Monk and I didn't really experience that much difficulty with the game. Try focusing on using domination as your primary (using empathy/backfire/shatter delusions) and Illusions as your smaller secondary. What you've said about Ascalon is pretty much been said by my unhappy buddies who are actually going back to get refunds on the game. But the truth is while what you've said is right about the repetitive AI and the fact you have to trudge through so many of the same things, the game really does pick up after you progress through the missions.

And yes you can easily obtain top gear through collector rewards late in the game (about 3/4 through the story), the community works section has a topic that has collector rewards for the crystal desert where you obtain the maximum damage items with maximum bonuses which requires a bit of monster farming but nothing like the number of hours/days/weeks you'd spend in Diablo 2 farming Hell's Mephisto for uniques like the Stormshield, Harlequin's Crest.

Rieselle · Jun 18, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aranarth

You have him on a lot of your points, but this one is unfair. Knowing which weapon you like best and the layout of each map is something that is purely learned and has nothing to do with game mechanics. Item drops and skill capturing are completely different.

Hmmm, the flavour of what I was trying to say wasn't properly expressed in the way I said it.

Sure, there's "artificial differentiators" in an Online RPG, in addition to the natural differences in the human player's knowledge and skill.

What I was trying to get at, is that you have to enjoy playing and competing at the level you find yourself in, its simply not possible for everyone to be competing "at the top level". This general principle is the same in all competitive things. Online RPGs just add a couple more dimensions to it.

It's almost as if there's a mentality of the "whinging loser". If such a person loses at an FPS, they have noone to blame but themselves. (or they might go "AK is too strong, dammit!") But add any factor out of their direct control, and they instantly latch onto it and complain about it.

Let's put it this way:
1. If a skilled team that has unlocked all the goodies often beats a skilled team that hasn't unlocked much, that's not a big problem IMO.

2. If a skilled team that has unlocked all the goodies ALWAYS beats a skilled team that hasn't unlocked much, then that's probably a problem.

3. If an unskilled team that has unlocked all the goodies ALWAYS beats a skilled team that hasn't, thats DEFINITELY a problem.

Which of these scenarios are present in GW? From my forum readings it seems only 1. Any experienced GvGers care to comment?

Aranarth · Jun 19, 2005, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Finding a Superior Air rune is just not comparable to learning how to use your character. You still need to learn to play your class along with gaining the items necessary to build what you want and adapt him as needed.

It doesn't matter in some hypothetical situation who you think may or may not win between team A or team B. The point is simply that it's fine if people can't compete at the highest level because they are not good enough as a player. You are saying that it's ok for items to keep someone from being their best because of some vague idea that not everyone can be number 1. I don't understand the logic of that. People just expected and want an even playing field.

It's clear that you just see the issue in a completely different way. The comparison of FPS whining to make the discussion seem childish is, again, making an unfair analogy. Pretending you were AFK when killed is nothing like losing because you just respawned with the basic gun and your opponent is all over you with a rocket launcher.

Edit: I am not saying that the game is that far gone at this point. I am just saying that your argument is not being fair to or taking seriously the OP's point in this case.

Madan · Jun 19, 2005, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Firstly, I'll address Talesin, who continues to try and incite complete and total conflict. Let me just say, I'm not throwing any fit, but when you come in here and comport yourself like a misfit, you encourage people to take things personally.

Here's a clue that may rock your world. People don't like being called:

stupid
whiney
liar
poor player

The sooner you can figure that out, the sooner you can stop passing yourself off to people as a complete misanthrope.

Interpreting my comments, like how many hours I put in for example(where I clearly state that I have played for over 20 hours on ONE build) isn't hard to understand, assuming you put forth even a little effort. That precludes however, a stupid compulsion to be right and lambast someone else. Perhaps you might like to pick up that lesson.

Now, sep. from all the silly, wildly, flamboyantly homosexual comments(who calls another guy "my dear"? that's just plain strange)...you might want to listen to what a person's statements are before trying to assert yourself as master of the Guild Wars universe. Guild Wars is a game. I stopped envying people's prowess in video games, oh, around the age of 19, when I finished playing Quake 3 Arena.

Trying to affirm that you're the ultra GW l33t mastAr means about as much to me as well...nothing. So save it. I don't care.

Guild Wars is tremendously time-intensive. To level to 20, short of cutting through all the quests and just going for straight missions, which may or may not catapult you, I can tell you right now that handling all the side quests then must be completely FRUITLESS. I'll get to that later.
As for your snippy comments on my "l33t gaming skills":

Your social skills suffer an indirect correlation to the amount of time you spend on that computer, playing Guild Wars. Now stop. Think about it. Savor it. Because you don't know how to relate to human beings like a normal person.

And finally:

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I wish to help!
Carefully reading through your studious, thoughtful, and masterfully written posts here, may I propose the following suggestions?

1.) Abandon your mesmer.

No.

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2.) Take up your Warrior/Monk character.

No.

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3.) Look me up! All riposting and parrying aside, I have nothing personal against you or anyone here for that matter. I'd be happy to join you any evening and assist with any adventure.

If I wanted to play video games with children, I'd invite my little cousins over or IM one of my high school students.

Seriously though? Actually, nevermind. I've been completely serious.

Here's my advice.

A. Insulting people, doesn't make you cool, admired and hasn't impressed anyone here. Now, stop. Think about what I've said. Noone here has been even the slightest bit amazed by your ability to be completely and totally antisocial. In fact, noone will EVER remember your post. They won't think of it as funny, or clever. Noone cares. You just come off as a total jerk. And a not too mature one at that.

B. Seek help. A good psychologist can help you work through the colossal feelings of inadequacy that must compel you to attack other people about a game, when you feel threatened or challenged concerning your prowess in said game.

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...dear,

No.

Forboding:

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The entire article sounds like it was written by a noob

Thanks.

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madan, Add Forboding Angel to your friends list. After reading the topic a bit more I feel sorry for you lol. You really havn't seen anything.

No thanks, I think I'll pass. You and Talesin can hang out together.

Madan · Jun 19, 2005, 02:32 AM // 02:32

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It's Called Free Trade:
Isn't that how real life is? Money is rare, that's why it's so valuable. Here is a lesson in simple econimics:

Save it. I have an MBA with a minor in economics. I don't need you to act cool and shove some backseat, college macroeconomics tidbit down my throat.

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If they make money drops bigger and/or more frequent that would be the same as the governement printing more money. The result? INFLATION.

Wrong. Bigger drops wouldn't necessarily result in inflation any more than an increase in the minimum wage increases inflation.

Hint: They aren't correlated.

I'm not asking for the sword to cost less. I'm asking for the merchant to give you more than ten percent of the item. Nowhere in a free economy do you have merchants that buy items at ten percent of their price.

You buy a car, turn around and resell it for 90-95% of the purchase price, assuming you do so within a week. You don't resell it at 10%.

And that was my point.

Which you completely blew past...

In your attempt to get a "cool" little lesson in about "economics".

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Isn't making money in real life a grind?

Making money in real life often is a grind.

Should free-time pursuits, like gaming be?

Madan · Jun 19, 2005, 02:38 AM // 02:38

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He claims that monsters only drop 2-20g, and he talks about "not getting EQ for free" as if it's a bad thing.

I never said it was a bad thing equipment isn't for free. When you start paraphrasing, we have problems. I never said it. Period. You're, again, like many others, reading into my comments and ascribing opinions later that have NOTHING to do with the posts that I made.

As for farming, whatever.

Aranarth · Jun 19, 2005, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madan

If you're thinking that you're getting Everquest for free, you're wrong.

EQ as in Everquest. I assumed this was clear enough on its own.

Madan · Jun 19, 2005, 02:46 AM // 02:46

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Again - I can't believe you're comparing GW to the games you are mentioning to prove your point. The amount of Attributes in GW is equal to the amount of attributes in D&D... plus EVERY attribute is important to your character. In D&D you just want to max out your 2-3 important attributes, everything else is junk. (Charisma for a fighter, anyone?). If you're complaining about the lack of RP, well Diablo has very little RP as well. NWN might be better.

Comparing the GW system to D&D is silly. GW may be more streamlined but D&D has ten times more information.

Skills, just like GW. Attributes. Spells AND statistics like AC/AB/BAB/etc...
The amount of freedom in D20 buries GW. Period.

For the record, charisma is useful for some fighters. Charisma improves your "taunt" skill, which allows you to have a higher taunt. Taunt can be used in melee fights to lower your opponent's AC, making your hits more likely.

What's truly sad, however is that the post was polite. So we disagreed. No problem. Instead, he has to end it on this note:

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Gah.... I can't believe I wrote such a long post rebutting your pissant opinion...

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I'll shut up now.

Thank you.

Advocate Of Hell · Jun 19, 2005, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Good arguement, i thouroughly think your wrong. Guild Wars is an exelent game, in my opinion. Though it has flaws, what game doesnt, Gran Trismo 4 doesnt have this, Call of Duty doesnt have that. How about pointing out the magnificent job people have done on this game. Take what you want or leave with what you have!

Madan · Jun 19, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Thanks for the respectful reply. A lot of posters have been nice here. And many have allowed me to assess a problem I will get to later.

There are three points I'd like to address in your comments however:

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The henchmen are even equipped with really solid AI and perform much better than their levels would indicate(they're about 6 levels lower than you at any given time).

This is at least a partial exagerration, and probably based on your first character. I have another character going through the game at a still leisurely pace (I'm not running across the map to skip missions or anything, but I'm ignoring a lot of side quests), and my character is actually keeping quite close pace to the levels of the henchmen.

Even the first time through, it often seemed like the henchmen were usually 2-3 levels behind me. Your Milage May Vary.

On this first point, I can assure you that I am NOT exagerrating. All the henchmen that I can currently use in Pockmark flats are level 6. I am currently level 11. That is five levels under. I affirmed six. That is not a wild exagerration, especially considering that I'm closing on level 12.

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... Now square such a map and you can realize that there is a large variety of areas and creatures to slay. The problem is that you'll most likely be slaying the same three types over and over once you enter one area.

Sure. This is true. Like most things, it's a matter of opinion how important it is. "Three types" is also a wild exagerration, but the point is taken.

Again, this is NOT a wild exagerration. In specific sub-areas, like near Pockmark Flats, you could find yourself fighting:

devourers
golems
crowns of thorns...

And...

That's it.

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Your point is taken, but GuildWars is far more like Diablo than Quake. It's far more like Quake than Diablo is like Quake, but it's still mostly Diablo-esque.

Again, a major point of opinion. I greatly appreciate the elegance and simplicity in GuildWars, while still providing an absurd number of combinations of all kinds. If you are REALLY looking to do statistical craziness, I think there's TONS to do in GuildWars. Some of it doesn't come at the lower levels of PvE, but that's extremely reasonable: Introducing things slowly makes it FAR easier on new players. This is an admirable goal.

This is a good summation. The game feels like a cross between Quake II and Diablo.

I was *hoping* for a cross between Quake II and Baldur's Gate, I guess.

My fault, I suppose.

My last point:

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Which brings me to my last point. Outfitting your character is an excruciating process. Sure you can salvage materials from goodies and craft your own items with help. Usually, the item you found at level 3 is just as good as the items you find at level 13. No, I'm NOT kidding. The items are very ho-hum. No distinction between them in appearance or abilities.

1) I disagree completely with the assertion that items found at level 3 are as good as level 13 items. I have not experienced anything like that, and I have four characters who are at least level 13 or higher.

You misinterpreted me. I stated that equipment you found at level 3 was as powerful as equipment you have found in level 13. And for me, it basically has been.

At level 3, I found the most powerful wand I have come across thusfar. Despite "popping" over a hundred wands by now. Not one has been better, despite being almost ten levels ahead.

And that was my point.

Oh and:

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It's a slight amount of work to get five dyes of a particular color if you really want them, especially if they are rare black dyes. Otherwise, though, getting dyes in general isn't that hard. You can buy most of them for ~150-300 gold.

I was just on ten minutes ago and someone was selling all the colors for 350 each. Except for black...that was going for 3k(crazy, yes, I know).

Anyways, thanks for the polite reply.

Madan · Jun 19, 2005, 03:13 AM // 03:13

That after so many asinine comments from some nasty posters...the solution is plain in my face.

The side quests are poision apparently. And luckily, a nice post by Mygo helped me see it:

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Hmm, my first character was a mesmer too. I picked a Mesmer/Monk and I didn't really experience that much difficulty with the game. Try focusing on using domination as your primary (using empathy/backfire/shatter delusions)

(What I had already done...)

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and Illusions as your smaller secondary.

Actually, I'm using Inspiration to pump up my Ether Feast. I need it.

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What you've said about Ascalon is pretty much been said by my unhappy buddies who are actually going back to get refunds on the game. But the truth is while what you've said is right about the repetitive AI and the fact you have to trudge through so many of the same things, the game really does pick up after you progress through the missions.

And so, I started to think. Everyone's punched through in 20 hours? But it took me two hours just to gain 3k xp. What was I doing wrong?

The side quests. The quests are poison. I haven't really been progressing on the main story arc. I've been solving the quests:

Assassinate several Charr leaders. Extinguish their flames.
Scare off harvesters. Ferry messages, materials around.
Assassinate creature leaders. Find special ingredients.

I've solved maybe 10 of those side quests and barely levelled three levels. Huh? I just spent an hour searching for one of the two footmen I need to locate, in East Barrier, so I could gain 1k xp. Not time intensive?

[Not time intensive?

It took me 20 minutes to find him. Ten more to walk him ALLLL the way back to the wall...And in the end, I'm only going to get some pathetic equipment and a 1000 xp(by now, this level requires thousandS). How can a side quest that is going to take me over and hour and not even get me to a third of the level xp, going to help me in solving the problem?

Nevermind that I've been wandering around wastes...wasting my damned time.

Unless. There's a faster route? Unless the side quests aren't necessary.

Unless the side quests are...poison?

But people state it can be done in twenty hours.

Which got me to thinking that maybe, just maybe, the main story quests are more important? More lucrative?

If so, how do I address them? Which do I start with.

Gentlemen, it might be possible that many of the same players that suffer my "grind" suffer from my similar affliction. We've been taking a "hardcore RPG" philosophy and have attempted to solve EVERY little side quest first.

So if anyone has any suggestions...productive ones, perhaps now is the time to make them.

Porkchop Sandwhiches · Jun 19, 2005, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Follow the missons

Dyeeo · Jun 19, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

Not everyone will like this game and I'm getting sick of the complaining.

You sound just like everyone else complaining about the game. You appear to have limited experience in the game.

When I first started playing the game I thought it was great, then I went through a "down period" in which I was bored of the game. I continued to play though and found that it got much better.

Err it only got better for you because you could throw around 50k for weapons and items. 50k that nobody can get anymore. Correct me if I am wrong of course but I remember you offering rediculous amounts of gold for items here on the forum.

Mygo · Jun 19, 2005, 06:34 AM // 06:34

What's funny is I did all the side quests and I can tell you now they take a crapload of your time and aren't really worth it.

People who get to Ascension in 20 hours are people who have rushed the game. If you're trying to appreciate it for what it's worth, progress through the missions at your own pace, and if you're willing to allow yourself to read into the skill quests list on this forum in the community works, make sure you complete those side quests as they're the most important ones. They offer you skills as rewards without actually having to pay for them using the skill points you acquire. This is a very very important thing to know as later on you won't be able to unlock all 150 skills without grinding enough levels. This helps to save skill points as you do not want to buy skills that you can already get for free from a quest.

You can pretty much skip the rest of the other side quests as they're just xp quests and yes the reward is pretty dull even after they revamped it and increased the stats they come with. From memory I stopped caring about equipment and was just worried about how I should allocate my skills in order to kill the monsters as fast as possible. By the way you should probably discover that town in Pockmark Flats which is where you were supposed to go to find that other man (fugitive), there's a town nearby there that offers you skill quests and yes it does take quite a bit of time trudging through areas.

Not sure if you haven't done this already but you should buy a domination mask from Corwen and put a minor rune of domination on that (should cost 120g or something low). If you've trudged around that much I suspect you'd have at least 1 platinum saved and enough materials to make that mask.

Having +2 in domination can save you a lot of attribute points so you can spend them elsewhere like inspiration for energy tapping. I really recommend taking Conjure Phantasm and spending 3 points into illusion for the 4 second DoT and then the shatter delusion combo just before the spell runs out (use the skill recharge as an egg timer to time your shatter delusion 3/4 before the end of its duration) or up your illusion skills enough to get a 5 second one and blow it up before the skill recycles.

Also if you want to save time, check the map in the community works section, that'll show you where towns are and finding new towns often gives you access to new skill trainers or skill quests.

After you've discovered that town in Pockmark Flats head north from Frontier Gates and find Surmia that's your next mission zone. And follow through each mission 'til you hit the shiverpeak mountains.

Studio Ghibli · Jun 19, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

The quests are there for fun.

oostdyk · Jun 19, 2005, 10:38 AM // 10:38

I did all of them, heh.

My first character is still the one I'm using. I'm almost at lvl 20 and have just arrived at the Crystal Desert. I've done every single quest I could find. I've even literally walked across all the boundaries of the previous areas to see where I couldn't go on the map.

Wasted time? Maybe. I think not however, I just felt like running around and doing stuff that wasn't my main objective, to help me explore the areas more entirely.

Also, the extra money I got from those added ~40 hours of game time to lvl 20 helped me get my better armor without any effort.

I do agree that the economy is a little dodgy... At lvl 6 I went to post-searing ascalon. I bought a bow for 300g, that I used until lvl 18, because nother better ever even came along... Now I'm finally getting drops that beat the bow I had earlier, along with upgrade components.